Ryandor.com

Now I know that isn't a very discriptive title but I really couldn't fit all my problems into one short sentence. Therefore I'll have to break it down in here one at a time, this post will cover the initial problem, and as I resolve it if any more arise they will be added as well. This way I don't have to clutter up the boards with X number (and people think you don't use algebra in everyday life...) of topics.

On to the first issue!

Now I have made a map one time before with another tool I'll not mention. It was easy enough to use but was a resource hog, took ages to make the .mul, and left me with some very ugly coastlines. This in mind I've done some digging and found Punt and his tools. Everybody seems very happy with his efforts and his products so I figured it would be a good solution for me. Also since the afore mentioned tool relied heavily on C# and the .Net framework I was wanting to break away from it since I am in the process of slowly migrating away from Windows. Since Punts tools use C++ from what I've read they seemed to be a perfect fit.

I head to Punt's Site (very well layed out might I add) and proceed to grab what the home page said were the various ingredients of the WF Suite. Let me tell you on a dial-up connection that's an ordeal of it's own accord (no fault of Punt's). Now I set about extracting the various tools and giving them a shot in a logical order.

Since this is going to be a completely new world the first logical step was to begin with map generator. Here's where it gets interesting. I acquired a few .dll errors which I promptly fixed except for one.


All right, so I go to crack open the .dll and take a look around using Visual Studio C++ 2005 but it won't open in there. So blah... Not like I'd be able to figure out anything from there anyway.

Did I grab the wrong version of Mapgenerator? I only saw one on the download page and it isn't labeled with a version number or anything...

Is there somewhere to grab the suite in it's entirety? Perhaps I missed something...

Did I grab the wrong version of QT? The one I grabbed was qt4.1.2

Perhaps I installed the .dlls in the wrong place? Since I have a rough understanding of how programs look for their .dll files and I know they will always look for them in the Windows>System32 folder I stuck them in there.

Is there some certain type of folder heirarchy I should create to make the best use of the suite once I get things running smoothly?

Any and every bit of help will be HUGELY appreciated. (I have a shard Admin basically chasing me with a figurative mallet in demand for custom content including a map.)

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First, what version of mapgenerator do you want to use?

MapGenerator 1, reads UOL format data (in fact, requires it, as it doesn't ship with any data).

MapGenerator 2, supplies its own data (work in progress, as is the program). It has far more robust capability when it comes to coast lines, etc (but does take longer to run; a few hours for a map0 size map).


MapGenerator 2 latest is at www.demuria.com/punt/mapmaker

The required dlls are at www.demuria.com/punt. If I recall, mapgenerator 2 uses qt 4.1.3, don't know off the top of my head).

HOWEVER, if you want to compile, change the code, etc, you will need the QT development toolkit. This is GPL, and avaialble for windows from www.trolltech.com. The GPL windows version, only supports mingw, so you will need that as well (they offer a version bundled with QT).

Once you have that, you are no longer restricted to using the version of QT I happen to use (and the required dll), as you can just download the source of my tools, and recompile.

First I'd just like to thank you for your prompt response Punt. I was hoping you'd come to my aid since you are the man when it comes to these tools.

If I'm correct in the understanding that you use primarily C++ to develop your tools I'll choose version 2. The build time really doesn't matter to me since my system up-time is 99% (barring for power outages and system reboots, blasted windows). This is because I was around when UOL was being hashed out and am fairly certain it is heavily reliant on C# and .Net (not too much of a problem anymore with Mono but still).

Thank you for the links, downloading them now and installing when finished. I'll keep you updated as to how the process is going.

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No worries.

Hmm, my primary programming language....
Well, on Windows, there is no question it is C++. These days I only have mingw as my compilier on windows. I am fairly effecient in the language, so to change is just too "uncomfortable".

Linux/unix I use C++.


Now, on he Mac, I am using Objective-C. I have used C++/Objective-C++ on the Mac, but it feels to much like the odd man of the family.

Besides languages a few other insights if one cares:

On windows, I use the QT widget set for developing windows programs. It is just too nice of a foundation, and it works natively for when I am on unix. All of my tools should build/work natively on an intel based linux system just fine (one needs QT of course).
Although QT is available on the Mac, I opt to use the native Cocoa environment. Anything I do for the mac, is endian safe (so both intel/G5 macs are supported)



OpenGL is my primary graphics enviroment for programming, regardless of the platform. I don't code nor know anything about Direct3d/DirectX.

All righty, every thing downloaded and extracted without a hitch.
Started it up with the new .dll files and it seems to be working, now I just have to make up my mind about a map size... I'm leaning towards the standard size...

There will be four "facets" all the same size all the same map with the only difference being in asthetics. The premis of our world is a quadrahedron (meaning four sided world for those that don't know). To explain it better here's the idea. You have 4 states of existence in this world: The Living, made up of players and living on the first facet, the realm of neutrality which is where the dead go, the "Evil", and the "Good". Now Good and Evil are of course at war, and their war spills over onto the plane of the living and the realm of neytrality (but not so much). Therefore each facet must have the appropriate decor.

Much like the difference between Trammy and Fel in T2A. Since the maps are pretty much a direct reflection of each other it shouldn't be to hard to crank them out, no?

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Well, you are rapidly reaching my limit of knowledge! I don't actually make maps, I just code tools based on what the smart people around here tell me would be useful!

Stormcrow, Dian, HellRazor, Ryandor, and others will be the ones to help you actually make maps!!!!

No worries,

I do appreciate all the help in getting this one running. The GUI seems well designed so I'm not going to pester the fellas about how to work it here and will instead search for a guide FAQ to use for reference. If I hit any other snags along the way I'll let you know.

Maybe some day you'll let me pick your brain about C++ and OpenGL as that is the language and environment I would like to master. I was trying to follow a beginners guide but I'm Using MS VS 2005 Express Edition and the instructions weren't dead on in getting it to work with LibSDL So I'm having to wait till I learn more... And learning is slow going on one's own, all the books I have seem to skirt around C++... I kinda wanted the shard Admin to migrate from RunUO to UOX for that reason but they went to JavaScript for the scripts and the sites for UOXC are down so that isn't going to help me expand my knowledge. Of course M$ wants to shove everybody towards C# and the .Net stuff. *gripe, gripe, gripe, flame, flame, flame, sigh*

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Any time. To me, these projects are as much about the code development as they are the tools ( in terms of access and exchange with others).

I can't help much however on any MS specific, as I don't use any of those tools ( linux was my primary development enviroment, and now it is the Mac). But whatever I can do.

Sorry for delayed replies around here latly, all focus has been with getting a new site ready here, but to answer that, creating 4 facets for one map is absolutly possible. Your limits would be within using the dif files for 2 of the facets, the other 2 would most likley not have support for difference in map tiles and/or statics for that matter.

So to sum it up, you would only be able to have a difference of map/statics on 2 of the 4 facets, if you use the same map for all 4 facets. Unless you used a custom client that could support a custom dif file system.

Cool idea though, and id like to hear any progress on how it works out, and if you find a way around what I had explained

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Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Punt:
Yeah I'm relly trying to break away from the whole MS experience. So many limitations and restrictions, however since I don't have broadband and a Linux compat dial-up modem I'm pretty much shot when it comes to getting the best I can out of Linux right now.

Dian:
I haven't noticed much of a delay in the replies at all, but thanks for the concern.

Now then I believe this question is aimed more towards you or one of the other fellas on the boards. When I open a map.bmp in photoshop and I go to Image>Mode>Indexed Color>Custom>... The swatch I should use is the Terrain.act from mapgenerator correct? Then start drawing?

When this version of the map is complete are you required to draw a second altitude map? using the same method but with the altitude swatches? Looking at Mapgenerator it seems so.

Also if I want to place caves and networks of tunnels inside of the mountain ares I paint is this possible using mapgenerator? What technique would I use? The same as in the map making tutorial but slightly modified I would surmise.

Any other steps required to get a basic map running for use in mapeditor?

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Right. You can also have Map Generator create a new color palette form its xml data files. So if you stick with using this tool, you will later find that extremely useful, for when you want to add custom transitions, and/or want to edit an index of the color palette for a new map tile group/transition. which relates to the next question..


punt has also created a transition editor tool just for this. Using the editor GUI, you can create almost endless transitions. Its capable of creating from the standard forest to grass style transitions, to even associating static items along with a transition of your choice, like cave floors under a mountain map tile. Seemingly endless possibilities there.


Exactly. Although this seems like double the amount of work compared to a single map, holding both terrain/altidude, you will find its just the opposite. Having pure terrain means only needing to use one color for grass etc on the image, and that can go fast. Also, by separating altitude/terrain, the terrain palette now has tons of room for all those complex and custom transitions a map maker wants to be able to create, but couldnt before, being just the grass section of the palette would take 12-16 index spots :-/

Anyways, that should both help you start out, and also let you know a little more about the true ability of Map Generator. Good luck

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Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Thank for those replies Dian. I hope you don't get sick of me because I do have many questions. Now then I've begun the base terrain map. So my next question is about coastlines/land-to-water transitions. I've already gone ahead and done this, but I'm saving with incermenting numbers on the map so if I need to go back to and earlier version it's as easy as picking that number of the build. Should there be a buffer area of small beach around each land mass to ease the transitions? Will a 2 pixle buffer for said beaches be ample? In size?

Here's the current build of the map.

The idea and the reason for being so jagged is very Pangea Meaning all the land masses should fit together like a puzzle to make one large landmass. This replicates the Earth's own continental drift in a similar way. I could smooth the land masses out some, but why? The idea is that the shard is young... In fact instead of doing standard prerendered cities we're going to lay down only one main temple in the middle of the main continent containing all the players need, then as the players place housing we'll build the cities around and within the settlements. This way the players truely do shape the shard.

As far as the work around for the 4 facet thing, the easiest solution in my mind would be 3-4 copies of the map each being a different .mul. It will take up large amounts of space I know but thankfully we are going to start with just one facet then work on introducing the others. After I get the first map up though I'll look at trying different ideas.

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If you use the transition editor, don't forget about the reported bug, where it duplicates the first line on save. one needs to remove that duplicated line manually for any of the tools (mapgenerator/transistion editor) to read the file properly after that.

One small note on coast lines, you should note that there are 2 kinds of ocean, deep water and shallow. The main purpose for these (defied originally from OSI/EA themselves) is for fishing mainly. Theres probably some reasons too with boating, that I cant think of atm.

What you want to do is create another border around your landmass with shallow water, then let that flow into deep ocean. So you would go frol land to shallow water (vary the pixle width as you see fit) to deep ocean.

Depending on the EMU you use, fishing will then have the full use, Fisherman will then need to actually head out into sea on boat to get the deep ocean fish (or whatever else needs deep water to catch) compared to shallow water, being limited to small fish, and boots etc.

Shallow water should also be used for small ponds, rivers and that sort of stuff, making it more realistic that a fisherman cant obviously catch a sea serpent or whatever, thats obviously not going ot be found in a little pond.

As to your 'buffer' zone between land and coast, thats absolutly left to your preference to how you want your world to be defined. One thing though, dont limit one style to the entire world. Take Earth for example, not all coasts are alike throughout the world, sure most are sand beach's, but others are made up of bedrock for example. Also, many are man made to hold a jeti.. be creative, thats what seperates the good maps from 'just another custom map'
Map Generator's near limitless ability to create custom transitions, and the amount of free palette index to add them, should be used to its full potential

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Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Punt:
I really appreciate the heads up.

Dian:
Thanks again. I'd already added a 5 pixle space of shallows around the land as well. But thanks for that. This is whre it comes into being more artistic than scientific. I wasn't planning on leaving them all sand, it's just a good base. later I can go in and use bruses to change the shallows in spots making them more wide or what have you (bays and such). I just remember other tools required a buffer of beach, can MapGen handle the tansition without the beach then or would I have to add a transition?

I'm not sure if I'm ready to tackle custom tranitions yet...

Oh I almost forgot to ask, what do you think the best way for creating the second .bmp is? Using the first and then just converting it to the other indexed mode?

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I have actually just updated Map Generator with a few transition updates, and additions from Stormcrow... But I have not yet looked at or tested any of them yet, so I cant really say whats new.. He did mention adding a couple beach style transitions though.

Not sure what you mean by handeling the transition without the beach.. But the current set of transitions should handle water to dirt, grass, and forest.. in the bank style coast. You dont have to have a buffer of sand between grass or dirt or forest to water, if thats what you mean. Other non compatible land, like swamp maybe.. or lava..? would need something between that and water in order to look good.. basicly, your cheating by taking one land tile that wont transition to water, and transitioning it to something that will transition to water.. like.. cobblestone to dirt to water.. making the trans smooth, since cobble wouldnt trans straight to water.

As to Altitude image, Map Generator will create it for you. When you are ready, in map gen. go to (trying to remember) file > generate > altitude image.. or something close. It will generate an altitude.bmp based on the image you have entered in the map generator fields. More on the specifics of that later though.

Im going to be working with Map Generator a lot here shortly again myself, so hang in there, cause I plan to start creating tutorials on the basics of these things while Im at it, along with creating a lot more transitons... and most likely taking requests as well for custom transitions.

yeah, bla bla bla bla..

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Forget what you know, know what you forget.

Hmm, if you mean the altitude.bmp ("...creating the second .bmp"), MapGenerator will do that.

After you have the terrain how you like it, go back into map generator, and tell it to generate the altitude bmp for you. It will, based on the terrain you just made, do an initial altitude.bmp, that you can then edit.

Dian:
Yes that exactly what I meant by the beach thing, more specifically jungle to water, Snow/Ice to water, And Mountain to water. Not sure what you mean by bank style. I'm going to guess you mean the land just drops off into the water.

I'll be looking forward to that tutorial. Maybe some of my questions will help you out in the making of the tutorial.

Both of you:
Ah I found that, Thanks. Very helpful.

Anybody:
I'm trying to figure out things on my own but it's no help that I'm working with RunUO right now as when I try things in my local copy it gets stupid and throws a load of server exceptions at me... Exceptions with no clear output to use. It appears to be bad code in the core.

I really wish I could find a copy of UOX Classic to play with.

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Alrighty then,

So I've been steadily working on the map with a few breaks from it here and there. Things were going well till I decided to check the map in game to take a look around and see if there was more I could do and add to it. I fire up generator preform the required steaps to make an Altitude.bmp then go ahead and generate the map. Since it's just so I can look around it' fine that everything is placed at a z of 0. I add the map to the server. Compress it to a rar. Link that to gateway. Fire up the client. [set map Mesiah...

erm...

Why does it look like the landmass has been cut into strips?
Why can't I walk on those strips of land?

All I can figure out is that somehow either the .mul/.rar became corrupted. I did change the name of the .mul fiel so it is possible. I'll go buid the map again and see if it still happens...

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The symptoms you are describing usually point to a mismatch in the size of the map 0 (I assume you are doing map0).

ML increased the size. So the emulator you are using, you need to ensure that the map size corresponds to that (I am not sure if the ML client needs the ML size, but that would be another consideration).

Ok so it seems to work when I use the map0, I say seems to work because RunUO gives me region errors and then throws an exception. Any ideas on how to fix it so I can see the map in game and then know what more needs to be added/edited?

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Ah I see that about the ML size map...

So then a question arises. What XY coords does on start the dungeon area in with a ML map??? Is it still X>5119?

Also does this ML sized map replace mul0, or is this a different mul? the folder in UO lists maps 0, 2, 3, and 4. 1 would be trammel which is the same as map0. Then common sense would says map 2 is ilsh, map 3 is malas, and map 4 is the SE map. Correct?

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